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The Grouch

And I should point out that women forever being told that they shouldn't call out misogyny when they see it, for fear of being "unclassy" hurting the delicate widdle feelings of the poor beleaguered menfolk like Richard, is an important fight.

Richard

>>> Richard, you are making a lot of sweeping accusations about feminists, yet you provide no evidence.

Drumgurl-- That debate took place last January. It's probably all still in Happy's archives, I imagine. Not avoiding, just little point in rehashing.

Nicole Black

If this article can't make you understand why it's so difficult to have both parents working f/t with kids, then nothing will: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060628/NEWS01/606280419

From the article: "I see neighbors picking up kids — babysitters, grandmothers. In summer you're raising your kids through the village," said Pittsford resident Annie Disch, who helps run vacation Bible school at Hope Lutheran Church in Greece. "Summertime is worse than the school year."

It's a refrain experts hear from coast to coast.

Summer child care "just raises Cain with parents' schedules," said Linda Smith, executive director of the National Association of Child Care Resources and Referral Agencies. "You can't just walk (young children) into day care for three months. Older kids want to participate in things. We want them to have lessons and camps. It's very complicated."

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Some locations, like Arrowhead, can mean longer commutes for parents or a retooling of work hours to meet the buses transporting campers.

The cost can be daunting: Depending on membership status and other factors, a week of day camp can cost $140 to $195; a week at "sleep-away" Camp Cory, near Keuka Lake in Yates County, can cost $490 to $555....

"Based on simply the income scale, if you make more than $50,000 in gross annual household income and claim fewer than seven dependents, you would not qualify for financial assistance,"


The Happy Feminist

It doesn't surprise me. I have seen my in-laws go through it.

The Happy Feminist

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that it's not hard to raise children in a two-career family. That would be a silly claim to make.

drumgurl

Richard, does it show an actual trend througout feminism? Or is it just a few examples? If I thought it was the former, I might actually spend my time digging through the archives. But I seriously doubt you it.

And is riculing someone for being juvenile/arrogant any better than ridiculing someone for being a woman-hater? Please provide a list of what names you deem politically correct and I'll try to stick to them so you don't get your feelings hurt.

The Happy Feminist

Here are a couple of posts that deal with what Richard is talking about:

http://happyfeminist.typepad.com/happyfeminist/2006/01/feminists_not_l.html

http://happyfeminist.typepad.com/happyfeminist/2006/02/churl_power_too.html

mythago

Oh you lawyers with your ability to discern meaning where there is none

You don't need to be a lawyer to understand cheap distraction tactics or rhetorical games. In fact, I really think they ought to do a better job of teaching those things in law school.

HF, then I don't honestly get your comments. You believe you had a duty that trumps family obligations--but that duty isn't really to do what's best for the community, and it doesn't compel you to look at your job and say "Could I be doing a better job of answering the call of duty?" Without meaning to be at all snarky, I'd also note that your family (as far as I can tell) consists of another adult and pets. That's quite a bit different than attempting to juggle obligations to career and to minor children.

I think this carreer vs. children opposition gets things scompletely wrong. First of all, a lot of working do a better job as mother than many stay-at-home moms. Then, the "outcome" of childrearing surely also depends on the father (I am astonished that so many fathers are content with being the sole sperm and money donor of the family and have no ambitions to build a _parental_ relationship with their kids, i.e. a relationship that is more caring than that of let's say an uncle who takes his nephew to a football game once in a while).
And, talking about duties: I do think it is an important duty of the parents towards their children not to let their relationship be compromised with financial dependence.

Francesca

Only rich white women would see work as a privilige or liberating. This is the biggest reason the working class does not get feminism.

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