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The Happy Feminist

As to Will's alleged "troll" status, I guess you ignored the vigorous defense of Will by Violet Socks, Twisty and others.

The Happy Feminist

And finally, Richard, I can't stop to explain every quotation from every feminist blog that you find disturbing (but as I've demonstrated in the past, you constantly read them dead wrong) -- but uh I should point out two things:

1) The Pandagon quotation is employing a little known device known as "sarcasm" in order to express the opposite viewpoint. She is lampooning a popular CONSERVATIVE, ANTI-FEMINIST viewpoint. I told you conservatives hate men.

You can find the link here:
http://pandagon.net/2006/02/07/feminist-myths-101/

(Oops still getting the hang of html.) Richard, your ability to miss the whole point of the post is staggering.

2) Feministing actually posted a very critical item on the Melted Dreams thing here: http://feministing.com/archives/002730.html.
There is a pretty awesome discussion of the post there too.

(In fact, I didn't have a problem with the Melted Dreams thing but we feminists are hardly a monolith. You just choose to ignore those times when we critique each other. You seem to want us to critique when YOU find something disturbing.)

Richard

>>> Yet you persistently read complaints regarding bad male behavior and the ways in which certain cultural pressures encourage same as feminists saying ALL men are bad.

This just in from I'M NOT A FEMINIST: "Where are the angry newspaper articles on the crimes of sexist hate, the misogyny motivated attacks, the systematic abuse of one group of people by another based solely on their biological difference?"

Hear that Happy? Systematic abuse. We've apparently organized our abuse to keep the women down. I had no idea! Obviously, I'm not getting all my mail because I haven't received any invites to the Abuse Women Worldwide Project meetings.


Elinor

Anecdotal. Statistically, it tells us nothing. Only that women who chose to leave comments here have had bad experiences.

So? You gave anecdotal evidence yourself -- "Where I live, this happens." Unless you actually did an academic study of violence, harassment, and gender-related attitudes in the place where you live (which is only one place), including bothering to interview the women who live there and have to deal with the louts that you admit exist in that town, there's no statistical value to anything you said either.

We've apparently organized our abuse to keep the women down. I had no idea! Obviously, I'm not getting all my mail because I haven't received any invites to the Abuse Women Worldwide Project meetings.

That's not the meaning of "systematic" that was being used there and I think you know it.

Honestly I don't know if it's even worth it to respond to this. The way you attempted to use Amanda Marcotte's writing suggests to me that you're not debating in good faith, to say the least.

Mickle

Re: the "why isn't it just a search for a good doctor?" question I think one thing both sides - but the ob/gyns posting on that site in particular - seem to be confused about it the extent to which health care is a market driven commodity. It isn't from the patient's perspective, even if it often is from the doctor's. It cannot possibly be "simply the search for a good doctor" at the moment because there is no way to "search" for a doctor they way we search for cars, restaurants, books, etc. Health care itself is really (in terms of who actually has it) a luxury item, not a necessity or commonly owned product. Most people, as much as they bitch about their health care, believe they are lucky simply to have it.

It's only been a few decades since pharmacies were not allowed to advertise their prices - and there still isn't anything much to advertise when it comes to "brand-name" drugs. Choosing doctors is even worse. You can look up what the AMA has to say about them, but even that isn't commonly known and it in no way covers the criteria that most people mean when they speak of good doctors. We generally assume they are all at least minimally competant (or the would have been stripped of their license) - what we want to know about is their bedside manner. The only way we can get that is through word of mouth and referalls. Seeing a doctor is not like choosing what movie to go to; word of mouth is not plentiful or even useful when it is available - referalls are our best source of information.

And yet that is what made the ob/gyn so angry: his patient wanted a referral for her grandaughters - simply because he could not provide the services they needed (location and comfort). He seemed indignant because to him this was a business, and yet, ironically, if it really was he would know better than to be so.

There are all kinds of services that the store I work at doesn't provide. Sometimes is simply that we've run out of whatever book every ninth grader needs tonight for tommorrow's homework. We accept that we can't be everything to everyone at all times and it's written in the damn manual that they best way to deal with requests like this is to be as helpful as possible because that means they'll always come to you first. If the doctor in question was really involved in a business, he would understand all this already.

Since the question of gender discrimination will come up, I have to add that one of the things that happens to me most often is that boys don't want to hear my recs cause I'm a girl. This does bug me for a lot of reasons, but I also understand that the problem lies as much in the system as it does in individuals. I don't get mad at the kids who are taught that it's ok for girls to sometimes act like boys, but never ok for boys to act like girls. I get mad that this is what they are taught. So I do find it extremely arrogant for a doctor, or anyone else, to not only find fault with a teenage girl (who is often taught to believe her body is shameful, inadequate, and yet is also her most valuable asset) who happens to feel more comfortable naked and vulnerable in front of a fellow girl/woman, but also that so many people seem to have trouble understanding that gender is one of the few choices most adult women have when it comes to ob/gyns, and so we will take advantage of this one option fairly often, even if it isn't terribly accurrate.

If male (or female) ob/gyns wish for women to be gender blind in choosing doctors, I suggust they ditch the egos and work with us on finding a way to give us real choices. I realize that some already do, but very few of the doctors on that particular board seemed even aware of the problem, much less concerned about it - and those crying "discrimination!" seemed to be the most oblivious.

james?

hi, my names james, i no, im a male, and this is obviously a female sight, but ive been on here becos my girlfriend is going to a doc about her nether-regions, and i am incredibly freaked out about what the doc will do 2 her since he is male. ive been lookin at websites like this 1 with stories of experiences woman have had, and its easy to point out physical differences, but there is much more, all my male friends are almost purely sex concentrated, lucky they aint doctors, but, my point is, sure they may be doctors, but they are human males, and think the way just about every other male does, personally i dont, its a dishoneralbe to do so. but still i dont no him.so who knows what hell do.
sorry, tohught id have my say,lol,

james

Right. I wanted to come back to Richard's question about the main point of the thread: "Is it just a silly cultural thing we'd be better off getting over? Could it be that whether your doc is male or female really *should* be irrelevant?"

First, I don't think I have an obligation to "get over" my silly cultural prejudice against getting naked with strange men. I think discrimination in any other area is reprehensible but when it comes to getting naked, other considerations come into play.

Second, women's bodies are widely viewed as inherently sexual-- whether it's an inherently sexual situation or not. Back in the '70s, my mother couldn't go running (even in windpants and jacket) without getting numerous wolf whistles and sexual comments ever single time she went out. Street harassment remains a problem for women in a lot of places. Sexual harassment on the job remains a widespread problem for women. The proper level of modesty for women is a matter of national debate (consider Wendy Shalit's book or the many conservative Christian sites devoted to promoting female modesty) -- and modesty is an issue for women BECAUSE our bodies are seen as inherently sexual. Sexy women are draped on cars in advertisements. Women's bodies are still the most likely commodity to be bought and sold in the prostitution and pornography industries. A woman's physical attractiveness or lack thereof is still often seen as one of the more important considerations about her.

So it seems to me a bit unfair for me or any other woman to be obligated to push aside this entire cultural context on the basis that the medical exam is "merely clinical."

this comment waas written a fair way up the page,this is 120% correct, how many male prostitutee are there comapered 2 woman, how many guys get whislted at in the street?? and how many guys are raped compared 2 woman??

Doodee

Thanks for sharing

Clay Jensen

It would surprise me if this gets posted since a couple of years have passed, but I agree with you 100% Happy. You should always go to the doctor you are more comfortable with. I, as a man, would never go to a female doctor or accept a female nurse, although I know they are just as good as a man in every aspect of medical care. I also encourage my wife, daughters, sisters and my mom to always insist on females. I consider it the same as when you are in a locker room with showers. It would be taboo for me to ever go into a ladies locker room or showers, and visa-versa. Good decision Happy.

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