NARCISSISM, EVIL, AND THE CAPACITY TO CHANGE - UPDATED

Hugo, who is one of my favorite bloggers, left this comment in the thread on Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

From the other side of the coin: years ago, I was diagnosed with a whole "personality disorder cluster". This was back in the days of the DSM-III, and I was one self-destructive, self-involved, egocentric puppy. One shrink had me pegged as "narcissistic personality disorder/borderline personality disorder" with (drumroll...) "psychotic features."

I don't think the good doc was far from the mark. I also worked my ass off in therapy and had a religious conversion, and while I can't say I'm free from narcissism altogether, I'm a damn sight better off than I was. Change does happen, though it is always a matter of both grace and willingness.

This comment stopped me cold.  The idea that my father could ever change seems so wholly unlikely that I somewhat irresponsibly implied or stated that change is impossible for a narcissist.

My thoughts on this issue are still in flux (after all I never even heard of NPD before this week) but here is my current, more nuanced take on the matter (recognizing of course that I am NOT a professional in this field):

If you are involved with a narcissist, do not invest in the hope or expectation that he or she will change.  That very well may be a pipe dream that could waste years of your life.  It is far preferable to either cut the narcissist out of your life OR concentrate your energy on protecting your own boundaries when you are dealing with the narcissist. 

If you yourself have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, however, you should NOT be getting the message that you cannot change.  That kind of message can too easily serve as an excuse for bad behavior.  One of the main reasons that NPD is considered tough to cure is simply that people with NPD often don't WANT to change.  No human being, regardless of his personality type, can change for the better unless he WANTS to.  People with NPD tend not to want to change, because wanting such a thing would mean admitting to being less than perfect or god-like.  But, if you have NPD, it is your moral obligation to commit to change because it is quite likely that you are inflicting damage on the people around you.  Even if a narcissist cannot cure the wounds within (although I am not stating that is impossible either), he can change his behavior.  Change is going to be hard work though because you have to embrace a humility that is totally at odds with how you have dealt with the world from a very early age.

This of course brings us to issues of good and evil that have been perplexing ethicists and theologians for generations.  A while back, I wrote a post called On Being Created in God's Image, which addressed the proposition that all human beings have inherent worth and should be treated so.  As I feared, I was challenged in that comments thread with the question of how the axiom that all human beings have inherent worth can possibly apply to "monsters" like Stalin, Hitler, or Idi Amin.  I gamely attempted to answer the question, but also sort of blew it off by saying, " . . . [T]he reality is that in most cases in daily life, we aren't dealing with mass murderers like Hitler." 

Yet, as I know all too well, there are plenty of cases in daily life in which we ARE dealing with someone who is acting monstrously.  "Evil" is not too strong a term to apply to the way my father tormented me when I was three, four, and five years old and well into my teen years.  There are in fact plenty of articles on the web equating pathological narcissism with evil, like these here and here, or even questioning whether narcissists are human.  It's the old conundrum of whether Hitler was a being apart from us or if he is us.  And if the narcissist doesn't give a shit about me, why should I give a shit about him?  Why should I treat him as if he has "inherent worth"?

These issues have been very confusing to far better minds than mine.  Ultimately, though, I stand by the belief in inherent human worth even for the most cruel and the most depraved sadist among us. After all, psychological theory holds that somewhere deep within the narcissist is a very wounded human being who was himself tortured or rejected during the most vulnerable period of his life.  Hitler was savagely beaten during his early years.  My father was belted across the face so frequently and viciously that he sill has a facial twitch decades after the fact.  It seems to me that that even the worst among us deserves some degree of compassion and dignity for the sake of the innocent, victimized child within. 

That's not to say that we don't have the right to be angry or to hold the evil among us accountable for their wrongs.  It is certainly not to say that we have any obligation to roll over to people like this and let them trample us.  But still . . .

I oppose the torture and humiliation of even mass murderers.  I will also make sure my father's basic needs and dignity are met in his extreme old age (not financially, which is already taken care of, but in terms of looking out for his interests if he is unable to do so himself).  If he ever underwent some miraculous change, I would be thrilled.  I would accept him and any genuine remorse he expressed with open arms.  But until then, I ain't counting on it. Instead, I think there are ways we can protect ourselves while recognizing that the "monsters" in our lives are not wholly monsters but also human beings with inherent worth.  I definitely don't have all the answers on where exactly to draw the line, but I think a line can be drawn.  The line may and should be drawn differently in each individual situation.  It's a matter of carefully feeling our way through that process. 

(UPDATE:  Of course, the literature I have been reading and my personal experience cautions that trusting a narcissist may be a bad move, since the whole point of the condition is the construction and display of a false self.  So it may be quite difficult to determine whether remorse expressed by a narcissist is genuine.  That's why these issues are so difficult-- narcissists create a situation whereby it is difficult to trust them.  I suppose if my father expressed seemingly genuine remorse and a determination to change, I would accept him with warily open arms, if there is such a thing.) 

NOTE:  I certainly don't mean to imply that cutting a destructive person out of your life is inappropriate, even a parent.  In fact, I think it is in many cases the best possible course. 

SECOND NOTE:  The other issue is that the dividing line  between the monster and us can be awfully blurry.  I have read that the children of narcissists often "mimic" narcissistic traits without being narcissists themselves.  But the more I am reading, the more I am thinking that may be too pat an answer for many of us.  I don't think that I have NPD, mainly because I am not lacking in empathy, but I think I have plenty of other genuinely narcissistic traits.  There have been times in my life when my mother has said to me (in very appropriate disgust), "You're just like your father." So there is the factor of, "There but for the grace of God go I."

Comments

[AmyJane]

"There are in fact plenty of articles on the web equating pathological narcissism with evil... or even questioning whether narcissists are human."

This reminds me of a book I read where the author theorized the source of vampires et. al. (My post about it is at http://untanglingtales.com/index.php?s=vampire.)

His theory seems to be that the early folk so couldn't imagine humans being this evil (serial murderers was his context), so they invented whole other races.

Facinating theory and makes me wonder what they'd create for NPD...
(Sorry, is that disrespectful? I'm genuinely curious.)

[The Happy Feminist]

No. Some of the stuff I have been reading compares narcissists to vampires, although I think that analogy could apply to any emotionally needy person. And stealers of peoples souls, which is possibly more accurate if it's your parent, because the narcisstic parent tries forces you to be someone you aren't.

[Heather]

Psych student here, not that I'm an expert either, but one thing I'm learning is that many of us do have various disordered traits. What makes them cross the line into being a disorder that needs treatment, especially with personality disorders, which seem to me to be really hazily defined anyway, is the degree of severity - i.e. whether those traits severely impair a person from functioning normally in her daily life. It can be a fine line sometimes. BTW I love your blog. It was refreshing to find a *happy* feminist out there. :)

[Hugo]

Well, thanks! I really appreciate this dialogue, and have (one hopes not too narcissistically) expanded on my story at my own blog today.

[Helen]

I believe in "hate the sin, love the sinner". Just because a person behaves badly (I realise that is an understatement in cases like Stalin) doesn't mean that the rest of humanity has to follow suit in their reaction to that person.

I am sure a "friend" of mine has NPD, although I am no professional to be making that diagnosis. A couple of weeks ago when my baby was having brain scans and development checks to find out whether he had brain damage, all she could do was agonise obsessively about her holiday plans. She did not and has not inquired about his test results. This is one example of her self-centered behaviour. I have a long history with this girl, I don't like to write friendships off, but her behaviour has got to the stage where it's gone beyond insensitive. She has no desire to change. She told me a few months ago that she'd vowed to think more of herself in future and so wouldn't be phoning me, I had to phone her. At least since I realised she has a psychological problem I don't get so exasperated with her.

Sorry, just talking outloud. I wish you all the best for the future and with your father.

[mythago]

It's also worth pointing out that psychiatry is not an exact science. Clinging to "I'm a narcissist!" or "I'm been diagnosed with _____"--as if it were your astrological sign, fixed at birth--assumes that once you've got a label, it's not only correct, but you're stuck with it forever.

Horrible people have inherent worth, but they can have it on somebody else's time, IMO.

[Shawna R. B. Atteberry]

I have a friend that I think could have NPD (her mother was bipolar, so it could be that as well). I had to totally cut ties with her earlier this year due to erratic and borderline violent behavior. I just couldn't handle it anymore. I just finished reading Hugo's post on his experience, and I hope that one day she will get the help she needs as well.

[David Thompson]

I will also make sure my father's basic needs and dignity are met in his extreme old age

You've mentioned this a few times. I wonder, would he accept you to be his caretaker in that event, or would he hire it out?

There have been times in my life when my mother has said to me (in very appropriate disgust), "You're just like your father."

To which you could reply, "Hey, don't jump up my butt. You're the one who fucked him."

[The Happy Feminist]

You've mentioned this a few times. I wonder, would he accept you to be his caretaker in that event, or would he hire it out?

You know, you raise a very interesting point. In fact, my father definitely wants to be in a nursing home, but he has made it very clear that he wants me to watch his back. For Christmas, he has given me books about how to make sure your elderly parents don't get abused in a nursing home and how to make sure your elderly parents feel loved and cared for. (These are the kinds of things narcissists give as gifts -- things that will help you meet THEIR needs!) You've just made me realize that my preoccupation with this issue is a product of my father's expectation that I will be preoccupied with this issue. Doh!

To which you could reply, "Hey, don't jump up my butt. You're the one who fucked him."

I could, but nah. When she's said stuff like that she's pretty much been right on the money that I have been behaving like an asshat.

[PV]

Hey happy feminist...thanks for the email...I couldn't help myself...the jerk just gets to me!

[The Happy Feminist]

Tee hee. (I feel your pain.)

oh and he has a new blog too...
http://patriarchverlch.blogspot.com/

One wasn't enough to contain the hate!

[knomad]

Part of the diagnosis of a personality disorder is the concept that the behavior is part of the person and not subject to change. This leads to people who have been labeled with a personality disorder not being able to get treatment because therapist don't want to work with people who they believe won't/can't change. Which is a whole long rant I can get into because of a family member who was labeled "borderline PD."

I don't believe that people with personality disorders can't change but first they have to perceive the necessity for change. Probably not many people with Narcissistic PD would ever perceive the need to change.

Living with anyone with a severe personality disorder can be crazy making. You can't get realistic feedback and to get along means buying into their disordered views to some extent or being very good at faking agreement.
I think you are wise to go into therapy with someone who can help you sort out these issues.

[Sydney]

Just a few thoughts...

1. Not to be overly cynical or anything but, I'd be wary of people with NPD who said they had changed, mostly because this is the same kind of rhetoric abusers use on their victims to lure them back. Maybe the change looks real to people on the outside (like how Happy's dad looked "perfect" to people outside the family), but is not to those on the inside. As a few people have mentioned, a diagnosis of NPD is not something one would grow out of.

I also wonder if people with NPD who claim to have changed have *actually* changed, or whether they have learned to channel their NP to more pro-social ends, i.e. they've just learned to *act* more pro-social, and maybe even to use the pro-social behavior to garner more attention for themselves.

And if this is true -- I'm not sure this distinction between a more superficial change and a "real" change is all that important if it results in not hurting others as they had before. Unless of course the change is only on display for outside acquantences, and those close to the NPD person are still subject to his (her) abuse.

[The Happy Feminist]

As I said at Hugo's place (he has a post up on the topic), I think "change" can encompass a lot, including improvement of one's symptoms, regulation of one's behavior, or outright cure. Even some change is better than no change.

Also I don't necessarily think that people thought my dad was a great guy, although he seemed to be respected in his profession. It's tough now for me to see how anyone he encounters socially can appreciate not ever having a chance to get a word in or how his employees could have felt anything positive about him when he had no compunction about screaming at them -- behind closed doors, sure, but for the whole office to hear. In fact, I think my dad knew that a lot of people hated him but he took that as a further sign of his greatness. He can be very charming at times though.

[Kathy McCarty]

Have you ever read "People of the Lie" by M. Scott Peck? It has been unbelievably useful for me to understand both my father and my brother....both NPD and very damaging.

[The Happy Feminist]

Oooh, I'll add that to my new collection. I went to Borders a couple days ago and bought Trapped in the Mirror by Elan Golomb and Children of the Self-Absorbed by Nina Brown.

[Arwen]

NOTE from the Happy Feminist: Arwen emailed this comment to me instead of posting it because it is well over the 250 word limit. I appreciate her respect in doing so and I am putting it up even though it's over limit. Read the whole thing-- it's such a vivid account of what it is like to have an NPD parent.

The thing is, there are very few people I know who care whether NPD
people are evil, or whether they can be rehabilitated; and yet it's been a big
question for me all my life. Ex-partners for very good reasons tend to
say good riddance and who cares: but as my father's daughter, I carry for
him love and on some level knowledge of him that kept me hoping on a
personal level for a long time.

I've let dad go his own way, now, because frankly the hope was killing
me. I have to not hope in relation to my father, and certainly not hope on
any basis of wishing a father to emerge out of the man whose genetics I
share. Yet I still hope that someday the thing I THINK I see in him could grow
to vanquish the evil that he does, even if it's far away from me and I
never see it: I hope for release for him, because sometimes I think I see a
trapped and sad thing for which I grieve.

I have my father on one side, and a close relative on the other, who
both frame my experience with narcissism. My father is NPD, diagnosed as
such; and the other relative has narcisstic traits, diagnosed as such, but I
find the two to be radically different. (Something I reassure my relative
with the trait on, since she is in therapy and wants very much to free
herself of a trait that's hurting her.)

My father will manipulate and lacks empathy, whereas my other relative
is self-absorbed but capable of empathy. My father re-writes history in a
way that's hard to fathom as being sane: day becomes night, white becomes
purple, a day at the zoo becomes a night at a club - and he'll argue
his point (most rationally), until those he's arguing at will become
confused as to whether they were there at all. Not just me, but my siblings and my
mom: at some point, we just shut down and agree, because otherwise the
attack will never stop. As a child, I actually asked my doctor if he thought I
was "demented"; and what I meant was "dementia" - as in Alzheimer's -
because I thought perhaps my memory was broken. Reality kept changing. Localized
around my father.

Also, if I said to him, "It hurts me when you do X", it was almost a
guarantee that two days later he would reflect it back in accusation: X
became the center of who I am, and he will construct how doing X is the
very part and parcel of my personality. His reality subsumes whatever has
been said. My other relative will change the subject, but wouldn't throw X
back into my face.

She only disagrees with interpretation of generally agreed upon
reality.Yes, generally there is a victimization (also common with my father),
but the facts stay more central to the issue.

I think the thing that I've never heard from my father is "I'm sorry",
in any way that makes any sense to the situation: if he does apologize,
it's for random things that weren't ever an issue, or apologizes in such a
way that makes it clear that he was a victim with you and he's mutually
sorry about mutual victimization. This is a very different thing than being
defensive and taking time to accept responsibility, or being a big
personality, or even being self-aggrandizing. Because at the root there
is a reality break. Whereas my narcissitic trait family member can and will
apologize for smaller things (stepping on a toe), and will take time to
apologize for slightly larger things (saying something that caused hurt
unintentionally), and only throws up a defensive wall if there is
something larger at hand on the table. With my dad, EVERYTHING is large on the
table,whether it's what salt is being used or how you wash your socks. If
there's a disagreement, it's a Big Emotional Deal which needs to be Talked
About until Hegemony is Restored.

Anyway, I certainly have narcissistic traits myself. I have inherited
aspects of my father, and I cannot deny them. (It is inherently
narcissistic, I imagine, to write a letter such as this. Or at least,
very confident of taking up space, which may be a good thing that living
with a narcissist gave me.)

For me, the thing that helped me finally let go of the fear that I was
him, that I was going to set on a path of radical destruction of those I
loved -powerless to stop myself - was realizing and embracing that I am an
utterly flawed individual. I *know* I am not a perfect parent to my kids, or
employee to my employers, or partner, or daughterI am willing to own
that, to take my licks when they come, and admit my failure to be perfect to
other human beings, even if I thought I was doing the best thing for everyone
at the time.

Being perfect was such a big aspect of growing up with my Dad. He was
not a typical status NPD, but an NPD on a hippie agenda; and he truly
wanted/believed that I was to be THE wise spiritual guru who would
right the world. Big shoes to fill at four, but I internalized the need to be
utterly perfect.

My dad makes me cry sometimes, because I see glimpses of the sad him.
The person in there who truly dislikes himself. It's like behind his
grown-up face, there's a tantruming four year old, and his tactics are similar.
"The cat stole your chocolate mummy, it wasn't me" becomes a very odd sort
of adult reaction to adult situations, or adult reaction to kids, but in
some major way that's what it feels like Dad is doing. I feel sad for him,
because I think - (hope?) - that in there somewhere there's a good
person who is just fundamentally out of control.

The problem is becoming enamoured of that idea of the person inside,
and getting the piss kicked out of you while trying to approach cautiously
and lovingly with boundries in place. I can't do it anymore. And for my
Dad, at least, I can no longer hope; even though I think Hugo is awesome and
I'm SHOCKED that he could have resided anywhere near my father at any point
in his life.

[gh]

Hey, a great article on the inability of a narcissist to truly apoligize can be found at:
http://www.ippnj.org/mcwilliams1.html
Arwen's comment made me think of this. It's a great article, too, in explaining why it is that even when they seem to be saying sorry, we never really seem to feel an apology involved.

[Arwen]

Thank you for sharing the link, gh. That was extremely useful to me.

[hexy]

It's an incredibly complicated issue that I think boils down to something very simple.

It takes an enormous shift and a lot of work for a person with a personality disorder like NPD to overcome that and begin to treat others with compassion and empathy.

I think for them to get to the point where they genuinely wish to heal and to change, by definition that shift has already begun. A person with NPD who has not begun that process may promise many things, but they will not want to change. They may want to appear to change, as it may benefit them, but to want to alter themselves they must already be recognising the damage done to others. Thus, the first step has been taken. The trouble is telling the difference from the outside.

*shrug* Drastically simplistic, of course, but just how I see it.

[puglette]

HF- there is nothing to compel you to care for your father unless YOU want to. You really have no obligation, it is your choice. Remember, an N who has known us OUR ENTIRE LIFE knows what buttons to push on a deeper level than anyone else. And you can't HELP but resemble your father on occasion.

Reading how he EXPECTS it from you "as what's due him" is incredibly arrogant of him, with these gifts of books, etc. Christmas presents, detailing how YOU are supposed to take care of HIM??? Utterly ballsy and outrageous, I say... did your Nbrother get these, too? I doubt it; I think he's playing upon your very core decency and womanhood- a WOMAN is supposed to care for him, to make up for the abuse he received as a child.

How very, very pathetic and sad...you have my sympathies.

[GH]

On the obligation topic and pushing buttons, Puglette makes some excellent points! At the risk of projecting =), I wonder does the sense of obligation to care for him arise from your core decency and what you think is the "right" thing to do or from a certain anxiety that, if you don't, other people in your life will not understand why not?

I'll tell you, I stayed married far longer than I should have because even after reaching the conclusion that staying married was clearly no longer the "right" thing to do, I still spent too much time worrying that no one was going to understand why I would possibly want to divorce Mr. Perfect. Fortunately, I have a few very close friends who have been able to reassure me that the people who count *will* get it and the people who refuse to get it aren't the ones I need to be surrounding myself with anyway. The people who matter whill understand if you decide not to care for dad in his old age, too.

I still worry, though, about whether our child will one day understand why I am doing what I need to do. I am terrified that he will poison my her against me and I am terrified that he will damage her self-esteem the way he has damaged mine. But he can do those things even if I stay, so at least I can set her an example that a strong woman can set her own boundaries and isn't forced to quietly accept abuse.

[Arwen]

GH: Since I'm a child of a narcissist who launched a campaign of smearing my mom after they divorced, I can attest that yes, a narcissist probably WILL attempt to make your daughter dislike/distrust you. But you absolutely positively totally will be sending your daughter the message that no one has to allow this sort of abuse to happen. I think leaving is an excellent idea for BOTH you and your daughter, although it may in some ways cause a rocky relationship with her (although it may not), I cannot tell you how deeply the example of my mother standing up for herself helped me to bravery for boundries in my own life.

I imagine you will get blowback. A narcissist, in my experience, can't really parent because he/she's too much of a child him/herself. Kids do tend to push harder against the safe parent than the unsafe one, but it provides a strong rock makes the difference in life: so if your daughter spends more time losing it at you than him, you could take it as a sign that you're the safer parent... I certainly put my mom through pain. But my dad wasn't a parent, because he gave me responsibility for his well being. In my role as his caregiver, I would hate and fight my mom: in my role as a child in the world, my mom was my safety and my island and the one I needed when hurt. She raised me, and all kids are smart enough to tell the difference, even if they can't articulate it, or do with temper tantrums.

Kids also internalize their parents, and so anger at ex becomes anger at child. My dad was manipulative enough that I tried disavowing my mom to avoid the pain of being attacked about her. This was not a permanent state; although from my experience I'd suggest giving your daughter just the facts, and try to keep your feelings about your ex out of it, because for me my mom's anger at my DAD for the propoganda I was parroting made me feel very broken and alone, even though she made it clear she wasn't mad at me.

Anyway, I knew something was wrong with Dad all along. For a long time I thought it was me, sure, but Dad was always harder to deal with than anyone else. Depending on your daughter's age and where she's at regarding her Dad, she may be angry with you, or she may experience relief. (Or she may be angry with you about how relieved she is, since that can feel like a guilty feeling.)

And I am sure she will understand now what you're doing on some level; and one day will be able to accept it and thank you deeply for the decision.

[GH]

Thanks, Arwen. That is very helpful advice/insight.