DONTDATEHIMGIRL.COM - UPDATED

There is an article in this week's People Magazine about a website called don'tdatehimgirl.com.  Apparently, it is a forum where women can publicly post information about ex-boyfriends who have behaved badly towards them.  The women name names and the information is available to anyone in the world who happens upon the site.  A Philadelphia attorney named Todd Hollis is suing because he was described on the site as a slob and as an STD-ridden player and cheater. The owner of the site claims that the 1996 Communications Decency Act exempts webmasters from responsibility for displaying others' comments.

Of course I have no idea whether the on-line statements about Hollis are true or not . But I have to say that I am highly uneasy at the notion of people being able to trash their exes by name on a public forum accessible by millions of people.  As you all know, I am highly skeptical of the woman-scorned argument when it comes to rape allegations, because bringing and sustaining a rape charge is an awfully complex and grueling process that simply would not be worthwhile for mere revenge or particularly easy to pull off.  But trashing your ex and perhaps exaggerating or fabricating crap about him or her?  A cinch.  People do it in gripe-fests with their pals and buddies all the time, and it's just as easy to do on-line -- just use a keyboard to vent your frustrations and then press submit.

The difference on-line of course is that the comment is broadcast to the world at large where virtually anyone can find it and read it. And guess what -- if I were a potential date or employer googling "Todd Hollis," the fourth hit is a dontdatehimgirl.com profile from a commenter claiming that Hollis gave her herpes (and it would probably be the first hit except that stories about Hollis's suit are now higher on the list).  Another problem with the site is that the comments are posted anonymously, which makes it all the easier and more tempting for someone to exaggerate or fabricate.   

On the other hand, I kind of like the idea of another site called HollabackNYC where women subject to street harassment post pictures of their harassers that they snapped on the street as a means of shaming them and perhaps as evidence for the police.  Other tales of harassment are posted on the site without naming the harassers (for obvious reasons since the harassers' names are generally unknown to the posters).  This strikes me as a positive way for victims of street harassment disconcert their harassers and turn the shame right back on them.  Also, there is really no motive to make up a story about a random guy on the street, nor are you going to find someone on the site by googling their name (as the harassers are identified only by image not by name).  I suppose it's possible for a disgruntled ex to post a picture of a boyfriend and make up a story -- but that seems a lot less natural and more convoluted than the direct kind of griping on a site like dontdatehimgirl.com.   

As a lazy (and tired) feminist, I have not researched whether the Communications Decency Act defense is correct.  Nor am I sure how I think the law should treat alleged defamation on sites like either dontdatehimgirl.com or HollabackNYC.  (I will say that while I disapprove of dontdatehimgirl.com, I am relieved as a blog host to learn that I might not be liable for defamatory comments in my comments threads; there have been a couple of comments over the last few months that have given me pause in terms of defamation, although these comments have mainly concerned public figures.)

By the way, I really don't see this story as gender-based.  This kind of defamation could easily occur on a male-run site as well.  I am unamused at the suggestion in Justin Levine's post at The Southern California Law Blog that:

Hopefully we men-folk will use the forces of free markets and an open Internet to build a similar site (www.dumptheskankywhore.com anyone?). 

Um, while surely meant in jest, I am never excited to see the epithet "skanky whore," not to mention that it is hardly equivalent to "dontdatehimgirl," not to mention that the notion of taking revenge on the women in your life for the sins of other random women is crappy (and creepy).  Women are distinguishable from one another you know.  (Nonetheless Justin's post has some interesting info. including a comment in the comments thread by someone purporting to be Todd Hollis.)

UPDATE:  I started writing this post before I read Justin's post, but he confirms the Communications Decency Act defense.  Again lazy and tired, I haven't followed his links but I assume he is correct and as noted, I can see good reason for the webmaster exemption, even while it is disturbing to think about a site like dontdatehimgirl.com.  Moral of the story:  don't believe everything you read on the internet, especially if it is by some random anonymous commenter. 

Comments

[Moi]

I read that skanky whore thing at the So. Cal. Law Blog and wasn't thrilled by the gist of that comment either. I generally enjoy that blog, but that post rubbed me the wrong way.

Loved the Hollabeck site. Interesting stuff--and it's great that it gives the harassed women a sense of empowerment and control over the situation.

[Mermade]

Happy, I am shocked at who is listed on there. I'll leave it at that...

[Mermade]

I am even more shocked about what they said, because I know it's all fabrication.

[Mermade]

Okay, now I regret posting those comments. It was impulsive... I read your blog, went to the site, freaked out and then commented. You can delete my comments if you'd like.

[Mermade]

Okay, now that I've had a little more time to think about it and have cooled down, I feel ready to post a more intelligent comment. I am pretty embarrassed about the first two. My anger and outrage got the best of me and I didn’t think about the ramifications of what I was posting. I apologize.

I don’t like this site in the least for many reasons. One, it does not acknowledge that these “cheaters” may have changed their ways. It is also seems to be a site that thrives on trashing people, not helping girls stay away from “cheaters.” To me, those stories were more of a way of expressing rage at those boys than compassion for the girls. Perhaps a website that invited girls to share their stories of being cheated and hurt – while keeping the identity of the guys a secret – would be more beneficial and healing for those sharing their stories. And of course, there is no way to prove whether or not anything on dontdatehimgirl.com is even in the least bit accurate. I don’t doubt that some of them are true – some may be partially false and partially true. But there is no way of knowing for sure either way, and thus the site looses credibility.

Honestly, if you’re suspicious enough to search for a guy on a website like this, it’s probably a good indication that he’s not a trustworthy guy in the first place. I searched dozens of names – any guy’s name I could think of – and got a few appalling hits. I did that not because I suspected any of them to be cheaters. Rather, I did it because I’ve never seen anything like this and that was my first reaction.

[mythago]

This kind of defamation could easily occur on a male-run site as well.

What ever happened to that site that encouraged men to post pictures and descriptions of the women they'd had sex with (not with the women's consent, either)? Perhaps Justin can salvage his wounded pride there.

Otherwise--yeesh. It'd be one thing if this were a 'bitch about your ex' forum where everyone obscured the details, but accusing people by name is vile.

[The Happy Feminist]

Mermade-- I didn't think there was anything wrong with any of your comments. Actually, I think it's interesting and useful to know that you actually know some people listed on the site. So I am not going to delete anything you wrote unless you want me to.

[will]

Good post. I wonder what makes people say "Wow, that would be a good idea!!"

There is far too much potential for abuse on that website. Its sole function is to provide a venue to say bad things about someone else, whether true or not.

[Mermade]

Thanks, Happy!

[Tara]

I agree I agree BUT...

Anonymizing men to protect them from reputations they have duly earned is obnoxious to me. Maybe it's impossible to set this up to ensure some basic level of objectivity\trustworthiness, and then yeah, maybe it would be better if it didn't exist at all. But I wish it were possible to make it work...

[sam]

I was atwork a couple days ago and got a text message from an ex. the messege was a picture of me she took with a camera phone and sent me explaining i had been posted on the internet. Im what i would like to think a strong man. When i got home and looked i almost vomitted. i have never been so embaressed and disguisted that this type of thing is even legal, nevermind legal, its not decent. The picture of me is stolen and posted without my permission. the comments with the photo basically describe me as a drink lacing date raper.
I have never been depressed but i think i have learned what is is.
For the record i have never laced a drink because i dont have to, if i wanted to lace a drink which cleary i would never want to, what the heck would i lace it with?
My real problem is i am a pilot for a company and i am wearing their uniform. My time is limited before this is discovered by the wrong people. How is it fair or right that this can happen. Why havent we as humans figured out that even if a man is clearly innocent of charges, the guilt lye in the perception. this is life threatening because i have worked and sacrificed all i ever had to become what i am. to lose it because of a woman lying because she is bitter is crazy. i dont mean to sound dramatic, i just think my pleas to have this removed shouldnt be ignored anymore.
the things written about me on that site(dontdatehimgirl.com) are malicious and foul and when people assasinate someones character this way they should be in court standing trial. One person claimed to had dated me to. She writes that she met me at a party. I dont even go to parties!!
tell me what i need to do to be removed from this site.
thank you
jetflyboy73@aol.com

[The Happy Feminist]

Sam, if I understand your message correctly, you do not know who posted the comments about you on the site. This may make it difficult for you to get your name removed because the owner of the site may be immune from legal action under the Communications Decency Act. However, if you knew who posted the comments, you could perhaps take legal action directly against that person. There may even be a way to use the legal process to get the owner of the site to produce information that could lead to the identity of the person who posted the comments about you.

I should clarify that I am NOT giving you legal advice and that this is NOT my area of expertise. If I were you I would consult with an attorney in your jurisdiction who is familiar with the law of defamation. An attorney may be able to assist you, tell you what your options are, and the likelihood of success, and what the downsides and costs may be to you.

[sam]

i would like to thank you for replying and i have already started the legal process. I dont like accusing people of things but the list is obviously very short. Very few people would have access to anything of mine and very few people are told anything about me personally. Its crushing because im not the type to do people wrong, if i date someone and im not interested i move on. to be called liar and cheater from someone is heartbreaking. Let alone for someone to imply i spiked or laced a drink should be illegal. My mother has learned of this and that makes me sad. I have a pretty good idea of who has done this but i dont even have know who or how to contact at this site to get this solved. I wouldn't have as much a problem with this if i were wearing a t-shirt and jeans but in my work uniform is heartbreaking and i dont deserve this.
I realize im rambling but my greatest fear is my company learning of this and i know its inevitable. I am in the process of hiring a private in vestigator because other than the attorneys ive hired i dont know what else to do. Meanwhile, this site continues to get visits under my name. What kind of evil person would do this to someone. Post my picture and lie about me to the world. Its unforgivable, its just unforgivable.

[Denise]

Wah, wah. First of all, people must have done something to even have anyone think about putting their names on these sh!t lists.

All I hear is how upstanding you all are. If you are so upstanding, why would you even have been associating with people so unstable who would write lies about you.

[Gate]

Denise...are you serious?!!! Do you actually think that people HAVE to have a concrete reason other than personal gain and vindication to do something like this? Cases in point...the woman who lied about winning the lottery ticket and even hired a lawyer to prove her point? The man who is claiming to have been involved with the JonBenet case? People swearing on the Bible and fingering rapists and murderers who years later end up exonerated due to DNA evidence? You may need to save your tears (wah, wah)...because this could just as easily be any of us, including you. This site has nothing to do with dealing with unstable people, like you said to Sam. You don't have to be unstable just to simply be pissed off. Just look at how nasty your comments were to Sam on this post, and you don't even know him. Do you think that it would actually be any harder for someone to go on another site and post just like you did given their perceived justifiable reason? I am a woman, and I am in tune with my gender enough to know that if we are scorned (in most instances), there is a price to pay. Women love hard, and because of that, we fall even harder. That saying, "Hell hath no fury, like a woman scorned" didn't just come from nowhere. Mistresses call wives all the time in the hopes that the wife will leave, so that she can finally have the man to herself. In the game of love, it can get pretty ugly. I'm sorry-but you should never underestimate the will power behind a determined woman, or one that is (or was)in love. Men often tell women all the time what is going on up front, and we make the CHOICE to have that warm body by any means necessary. Where is the site that is telling women to check themselves and the choices that they make in men? When it all comes down to it, that is what it is all about...accountability and responsibility.

[The Happy Feminist]

Well, wait a minute, here, Gate. Don't tell me that "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." It's not like MEN never lash out at an ex. In fact, there are plenty of men who do far worse than merely lashing out verbally -- like stalking, terrorizing and committing acts of violence. And don't tell me that men never talk trash about their exes either.

The dontdatehimgirl.com site happens to be by women -- that doesn't mean that women as a sex are more vicious than men when we are scorned. In fact, I would bet the statistics as to stalking and violent responses to rejection would indicate quite the opposite.

[sam]

The reason i first wrote into this site was because i was simply looking for info on how to get my picture and the horribly foul info about me off of that immature and quite honestly a stupid site for obvious reasons. For the record denise, Im not a bad person and i try to be careful about who i associate with. At the end of the day you really dont know what a person is capable of. I respect everyones opinion and i like to think i have an open mind about everything. I cant help but to think however that what you wrote was written in part out of ignorance. I hope you dont think im trying to be mean because im not. The person that posted my picture was someone i simply wasnt interested in. There was never a relationship. There is a reason i have a hard time trusting women. It never fails that you can always look forward to something like this happening. All i can say to you is i did nothing to this person except not be interested. thats is!!
by the way, if you read everything i wrote, i challenge you to point out at anytime my claim to be exceptional. im sorry, excuse me "upstanding". Im not infallible, im human like you. I might be a man but im human, lol.
Its easy to say the things you wrote because no psycho posted your picture and said you were the equivalent of a date raper!! If they did you would be as mad as i am i hope. what if you met someone and they posted your picture because you were not interested and said the ridiculous things about you that were said about me? would you deserve that? then afterwards someone says to you well "you must have done something", you should re-examine that, im not sure thats fair and i think if you think about it you might feel the same way. the things i wrote were not "wah wah" things, they were written out of anger.

One more thing, i can site many times someone intentionally lied and ruined someones reputation and character just to make a point. All in the name of "love" or im a peson that needs attention, look at what happened to me, look at what this guy did. I know so many guys arrested for being accused of hitting their girlfriends when i know for a fact women have done it just to get "even". dont get me wrong, im not making excuses for the dogs that have hit their women, i have no respect or love for those type people, i know they exist too. My point is people lie on others for their own selfish reasons.
I welcome an intelligent debate with anyone, but im not too good at excepting insults from anyone. Im not a cry baby nor am i a weak man!1 I simply dont like b.s and drama i really have better things to do.
I should also say I know that there are some terrible guys out there that do some wicked things. Im sure guys stalk, murder, rape women etc, and i obviously dont condone that, those people should be buried alive permanantly, and im a liberal opposed to the death penalty!! but violence against women and children is where i draw the line!!. Having said that, i think both sexes can be viscious and evil!trust me i know, im posted on some site by a virtual stranger!!
I think stupidity runs both ways, women stalk men break out car windows, slash tires kill dogs cook rabbits etc(didnt you guys see fatal attraction), I did and it scared the hell out of me. lol
my point is no sex has a monopoly on stupidity, its simply an individuals choice to do something wicked.
food for thought!!
Sam

[The Happy Feminist]

I think you are quite right when you say that both sexes can be vicious and evil. This "woman scorned" business is utter nonsense, but it's not like we women are always angels either. We're just human -- as are men.

[Uncontainable_Spirit]

Dear Men,

Stop trying to debate this issue. You cannot win. I repeat. You cannot win. Just let it go.

Your Brother;

Uncontainable_Spirit

[john jackson]

My name is John L. Jackson III. I was in an intimate yet tumultuous relationship with Tasha Cavelle Joseph creator of website DONTDATEHIMGIRL.COM for over twelve years. Given that my name has already been drawn out into the public fray I will entertain the possibility of coming forward with any and all information regarding our relationship. Evidence will be substantiated. I can be reached at johnjackson1@yahoo.com

[The Happy Feminist]

Thank you, John.

Since I disapprove of the whole idea behind Dontdatehimgirl.com, I don't want to go down the same road they have by publishing information about Ms. Joseph's relationship behavior.

[GINA]

Sounds like John L. Jackson is looking for money and publicity. Does the L in his name stand for LOSER?

I posted a persons profile on dontdatehimgirl website this week. I was mad at my boyfriend and made up a bunch of lies on him. It has now went to far. His family is ruined and his reputation. I've tried to access the account in order to delete the profile but it tells me that my "ip or email address had been reported as violating the terms of use for this site" I cannot get to the profile to delete it but it will let me use the account to post "more lies" (comments) if I wanted. I've tried emailing all the address listed on their contact page but they have gone ignored for days now. I cannot seem to find a phone number to the company so that I can speak to someone. I don't know what to do...can you offer any information for me?

[Jane]

The website is an outlet for women express their feelings especially because many men do treat women like crap. there are soo many cheaters and liars and the website is a place where women can warn others. Of course they are pissed, imagine if you were treated that way? I think men deserve it and finally there is an outlet. Too many men get away with treating women like trash. They easily call women sluts and a the b word. If men didnt treat women as badly, then this website wouldn't be soo popular. men finally get a dose of their own medicine. they are the first to talk crap about women calling them names and ruining their reputations, when its lots of men that are those in the relationships that are abusive and cheat and lie and even hurt women physically. i applaud tasha (the creater) for having the courage to start this site and make it accessable and available. men should just respect women and treat them like they would like to be treated, or else you'll be on that site. if you think you did nothing wrong, think again men. men hurt women which is the bottom line. men need to be honest especially to those they "love" or even sleep with. i hope the site becomes even more popular and men at least apologize to the women they have hurt.

[just me]

Did you ever find out about getting your comments off after the "ip address was violated" issue? The same thing happened to me and I am rather pissed off about it. I want to take my comments off as well.